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Topic: Dialogue
Replies: 384 Pages: 26 Last Post: Feb 13, 2006 10:37 PM by: Ray Rolfe

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dale snyder

Posts: 509
From: Lakewood Township, Duluth
Registered: Oct 21, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 7, 2003 8:16 PM

WOW! I am so far behind. So far, that I'm probably a white anglo hipster. I'd have to ask my daughter to be sure. I will be 50 in a couple weeks.

<We need a "critical writer" to write and article about the proposal; A show of Visual Hotdish; art that is just good enough but not great.>

I never said my MM art wouldn't be great.

I just said it would be cheap.

Paul WonSavage

Posts: 31
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Jul 6, 2003

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 8, 2003 12:22 AM

Colin,

Help! I've got less than 10 posts and I've already been chastised by the moderator.

"I made a strong and hostile speech "

"who voted for my harsh position heard. "

"I went on to decry the shallowness of most of the contemporary art "

"institutions and agencies has left us with art that was popular to the group in power at the time and not work that had higher ideals"

"I have no respect for tongue in cheek hipsters masquerading as wannabe art rock stars."

So, in this forum, I guess it's okay to be "strong", "hostile" , and "harsh" with "no respect" in a general way.

Paul WonSavage

Posts: 31
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Jul 6, 2003

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 8, 2003 1:15 AM

On second thought…

Maybe Jamie’s speech was much more poetic, passionate and honest and I misread the posts.

I hope he uses his power to uphold his ideals of fine art and can present art that is well researched and honest. In my experience, cultural appropriation is not well understood by the public at large nor is it recognized as a serious issue. People need specific examples.

Good luck!

Colin Rusch

Posts: 1,435
Registered: Oct 16, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 8, 2003 1:34 AM

Paul,

The point is to be respectful and debate issues as vigorously as they need to be debated. We are creating a civil space for community dialogue, not a space for personal insults and the creation of hard feelings. There is more than enough negative energy in the community. The arts are in a difficult enough position that infighting is not only wasteful, but borders on irresponsible. Many people who have posted in these forums have transgressed a boundary or two, myself included. It's no big deal to get a reminder about the social mores of a community. Your opinions and insights are important and valuable. Keep them coming, but leave the nasty personal comments alone.

Colin

Sam Spiczka

Posts: 1,671
From: Sartell, MN
Registered: Jul 20, 2001

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 8, 2003 1:34 AM

> So, in this forum, I guess it's okay to be "strong",
> "hostile" , and "harsh" with "no respect" in a
> general way.

Hi Paul. I have to side with Colin on this one. The examples of Jaime that you cite at least open the door to a discussion of whether contemporary art is shallow or governing institutions influence the type of art supported, etc. The ideas may be harsh but they can be addressed independent of the one advancing them. There is no way to respond to the suggestion that one is "pimping" their name in a constructive, impersonal way.

I hope you do manage to read through this entire thread if you're interested. It was quite a ride.

Sam

Sam Spiczka

Posts: 1,671
From: Sartell, MN
Registered: Jul 20, 2001

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 8, 2003 1:39 AM

Many people who have
> posted in these forums have transgressed a boundary
> or two, myself included.

Transgressing boundaries is what artists do. But without any boundaries, where would that leave us? That is why I'm a fan of social decorum. Without it, how would I know when I was being naughty or not?

Sam

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 8, 2003 11:39 AM

> On second thought…
>
> Maybe Jamie’s speech was much more poetic, passionate
> and honest and I misread the posts.

Thank you for the compliment. I am a Socio-Political Performance artist and I try to make the "writing" of my pieces artful. I am happy that you noticed.

>
> I hope he uses his power to uphold his ideals of fine
> art and can present art that is well researched and
> honest. In my experience, cultural appropriation is
> not well understood by the public at large nor is it
> recognized as a serious issue. People need specific
> examples.

I believe that particular challenge is best answered by the role of informed and capable Art critics. I think it is their job to vigorously research and to hold the work of all artists accountable to a high standard of "validity". I applaud Critic M. Fallon for his courage to pronounce work as " bad art" in writing! That is what our critics can do to advance our Art!

He is my hero!
>
> Good luck!

Welcome to the Dialogue: " en guard!!"

coyote infante

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 10, 2003 10:22 AM

Monday June 30th the Artist Jimmy R Longoria presented a new performance piece on the Al MacFalane radio talk program.
In the role of Coyote Cuatro he created a redefinition of Chicano- Chicana- Chicanismo.
He did so with a document in four copies signed in an original hand.
re:
For discussion:
1. Can an artist "redefine" a cultural term?
2. What is the effect of this "piece" on culture?
3. What will be the response of other "cultural" groups?

Please go to the Sarai for the document.

coyote 256

Lauren DeSteno

Posts: 1,520
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: Oct 19, 2001

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 10, 2003 3:17 PM

Coyote and Jimmy,

I don't know quite what to think of the piece yet... what is the original definition of Chicano- Chicana- Chicanismo, and how is your definition different? Are you trying to speak on behalf of people who fall into your definition of Chicano- Chicana- Chicanismo?

A formal element of the piece that bothers me a bit is the "document in four copies signed in an original hand" - why this? And then why post it on the internet? Why broadcast it over the radio?

1. Can an artist redefine a cultural term? The only examples that come to mind are a) groups of artists that have adopted or redefined (or adopted with the intent to redefine) a cultural term; and b) scholars that redefine terms based on an artists work. Please enlighten me if you can think of any good examples of an artist (working alone) redefining a cultural term.

2. I currently see no effect of this piece on culture... what is your intent? Do you wish for people to adopt or reject this definition? I think the audience for this piece (folks already thinking about these concepts) may (at the end of their long intellectual day) concede to use definitions to quantify populations for "practical" purposes, but retire with a more personal view of how they define themselves.

3. Here's a question:

If "A Chicano is a person descended from the hybridization of Hispanic and Indigenous cultures whom endeavors to nurture the new cultural possibilities of the historic collision of the Old European World and the New World of all of the Americas" is a person of European descent whom "endeavors to nurture the new cultural possibilities of the historic collision of the Old European World and the New World of all of the Americas" also a Chicano? Why not?

Lauren

Paul WonSavage

Posts: 31
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Jul 6, 2003

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 10, 2003 4:49 PM

Colin,

I will respect your wishes as much as possible in these forums.

What I wrote was not nasty or ripping someone. And out of respect for you I will not mention names on this post.

1. Unfortunately what your doing to me is censorship and we cannot have dialogue with censorship.

2. It IS important to name names when citing a fact or describing ones behavior or actions. Its not trash talking in this case. In this case it is PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE and he is a PUBLIC FIGURE who has received PUBLIC PROMOTION and PUBLIC FUNDING as well as PRIVATE FUNDING that is open to PUBLIC APPLICATION. Naming him and the few other people I know who have behaved in ways that can be described as cultural appropriation is one of the best ways to open "dialogue" and be able to examine and judge their behavior.

3. What Mr X did was without a doubt is cultural appropriation. I know Mr X personally (for about 7 years) and have told him to his face what I think of him. Furthermore, the reason Mr. X did what he did was not really an intentional act of cultural appropriation, but an act of desperation. There are things in his PUBLIC LIFE that is PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE that drove him to doing what he did.

4. I'm not saying I love hipster art or anything but... Hipsters were the anti-art or anarchist artists of their time. The broke all the rules of stuffy pretentious inaccessible art and made it very accessible, funny, and creative. Ironically these same people were in love with the institutions and paradigms that they were rebelling against. The reveled in their successes and were able to say 'fuck you' at the same time. They ingratiated themselves with arts organizations and private buyers alike and they were able to support themselves from this community. What I noticed, is that over time they lost their edge, their freshness, and became an institution amongst themselves. Speaking from personal experiences with this group ?genre? of artists they weren't very nice to people, unless you had a big fat check for them. And then they were only nice to your face. So, back to my point. Their art was relevant at a time and definitely deserves some respect, but they lost it and it's time for new styles of art to emerge as the new status quo.

Paul WonSavage

Posts: 31
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Jul 6, 2003

Question?
Posted: Jul 10, 2003 5:09 PM

What is the difference between Hispanic, Chicano, Latino. What are some good ways to differentiate them as people, their art and their cultures in general?

FYI - I don't know if this was brought up yet...

The 'Hispanic' people are now the largest 'minority' in the USA. Their political talking heads (the ones I've watched on C-SPAN) describe Hispanics as people who want to ingratiate themselves in to main stream USA culture. We can see it in our pop culture J-Lo, all the Frida products (yes Frida's image and art has become pop), Ricky and so on. Hispanics have a strong desire to become part of the definition of American. All the while they have a desire not to anger African Americans as Hispanics get more attention and public funding and so on. (Please note that I am paraphrasing the political talking heads representing the Hispanic culture in the USA gov't discussions - these are not MY conclusions.)

Paul WonSavage

Posts: 31
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Jul 6, 2003

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 10, 2003 5:13 PM

I understand, My wife is a fantastic choreographer and director, but writing and public speaking has baffled her for years.
----
Heck, when I go back and re-read my writings a day later, I seem to come off a little more edgy and aloof than I'd like.
----
Good luck with everything!

Paul WonSavage

Posts: 31
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Jul 6, 2003

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 10, 2003 5:30 PM

Sam,

Why should we be impersonal. It's dishonest. We've put our full names in this forum for each other to see. That's very personal in the internet era.

After reading Jamie's post, I could only think of ONE artist that has appropriated the hispani/latino/chicano thing. Big deal.

Is the inverted racism/cultural appropriation really a problem? Does it even exist, other than within one's mind? Does it exist beyond a handful of people? I can't make a good judgment without specific examples. I can't research the issue unless I know where to go and what to observe. It's easy to describe and say its a problem, but how do I know? I definitely can't make strong personal judgments and choices, based off an internet forum.

Also, Jamie refers to national artists who water down their art for capitalistic reasons. Once again I'd love some examples so I can research them for myself and make a judgment. I care about these things, so I like to be informed.

But rules are rules!!!! And Colin rules!

*written with love, CR*

Lastly... I'm not forum savvy (as you can tell - I'm having trouble following this "dialogue" post). So did your last two posts totally contradict each other or...

X

Posts: 372
Registered: Jul 5, 2002

Posted: Jul 10, 2003 5:31 PM

3. What Mr X did was without a doubt is cultural appropriation. I know Mr X personally (for about 7 years) and have told him to his face what I think of him. Furthermore, the reason Mr. X did what he did was not really an intentional act of cultural appropriation, but an act of desperation. There are things in his PUBLIC LIFE that is PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE that drove him to doing what he did.

For the record.. I AM X .... NOT the "Mr. X" Paul WonSavage is talking about!

Paul WonSavage

Posts: 31
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Jul 6, 2003

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 10, 2003 5:35 PM

My bad!!!

Mr. X, I have no idea who you are. I used X like in algerbra... could be anybody...

Next time Ill use Mr Z.

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