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Topic: Dialogue
Replies: 384 Pages: 26 Last Post: Feb 13, 2006 10:37 PM by: Ray Rolfe

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X

Posts: 372
Registered: Jul 5, 2002

Posted: Jul 10, 2003 6:46 PM

My bad!!!
Mr. X, I have no idea who you are. I used X like in algerbra... could be anybody...
Next time Ill use Mr Z.

Oh, I understand completely.. (X - the unknown factor). I just didn't want what might come from the misunderstanding. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm not "Mr. X." I thought I better make it clear for those who don't.

Sam Spiczka

Posts: 1,671
From: Sartell, MN
Registered: Jul 20, 2001

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 10, 2003 7:34 PM

Paul, my posts very well may contradict each other, that was partly the point. I'm a fan of complexity and have no problem with contradictions.

But my larger point is that a level of civility is required to grease the wheels of any community. This is different than censorship. It is not "dishonest" to refrain from insulting someone who you don't like. But civility does not restrain you from making very specific arguments. Jaime (or Coyote rather) has put himself forward strongly in this forum on the issue of race and therefore has perhaps opened himself up to address his own practices. I am saying do so respectfully. Perhaps ask him to cite examples of artists who have watered down their work for capilalist reasons. Ask him to cite specific examples of cultural appropriation that was unethical. This will continue the conversation, move it beyond the confrontation of two poeple and perhaps be illuminating for us all.

And yes, Colin does rule. But I am actually the moderator of the Plaza so I indeed rule as well.

Sam

Danny Smith

Posts: 182
Registered: Nov 9, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 11, 2003 12:01 PM

sam, let's hope these new "rules" of civility apply to everyone.

Sam Spiczka

Posts: 1,671
From: Sartell, MN
Registered: Jul 20, 2001

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 11, 2003 12:41 PM

Danny, there aren't any hard and fast "rules" and it isn't my job to be the forum nazi. Yes, eveyone should be equally held to standards of civility on here. In my new role, I will try to keep things running smoothly and with an even hand.

If this exchange seems to be commanding more attention than it deserves, I'd say it is in part because we are adapting to the new roles of the moderators (or at least I am). We all have an interest in how this forum is conducted and I expect it to remain largely self-governing. But if anyone has an issue with how I conduct myself that they don't want to bring up on the forum, they can contact me via email or go right over my head to Colin if that is more comfortable.

I know this is a long answer to a short point, I'm just trying to be clear. I appreciate knowing you're out there to keep me on my toes, and I am not unaware of what in the past you are refering to. Is that satisfactory?

Sam

Colin Rusch

Posts: 1,435
Registered: Oct 16, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 12, 2003 1:44 AM

Hi Paul and everyone else,

P - Thanks for pushing the issue. Obviously, it is a matter of great concern for all of us. I think we can come to a more satisfying understanding around the issue.

First, I read your post as a direct criticism of a specific person's integrity. That was why I responded as such. I think we all agree that respect is essential to any healthy community. I do not know your personal history with Mr. Z. My concern is in creating a space where these topics are discussed constructively and insightfully.

Second, I don't agree that my request to avoid insults is censorship. We are discussing the borders of slander not just your right to free speech. I was responding to the potentially slanderous aspects of your post.

Third, I agree that honest, passionate, uncensored dialogue is necessary. And that type of dialogue will obviously heat up and become very personal at times. My role as facilitator is help the dialogue stay focussed and work towards building stronger community in the arts, not police people's behavior. With that in mind, the important thing for everyone to consider is how can we can make points most effectively. We can talk all we want, but if people can't hear each other because they feel insulted, we aren't getting anywhere.

Fourth, I agree that we need to discuss details to get to the real aspects of any issue. It will be distasteful to some because they will get called on their BS. I need to reiterate that my concern here is getting to the heart of the matter while avoiding slander.

Fifth, I have been thinking about what rules we can follow in discussing these sensitive topics. I have not come up with clear answers. Issues of who we are, where our work comes from, and our authority are complex and very personal. In regards to behavior, I think this is an issue for the community to discuss and own. We have been creating basic guidelines for behavior in these forums. Let's continue with these tricky subjects, try to get specific with our arguments, and see how it falls out. I think that will give everyone a good sense of what is appropriate, interesting, insightful, and positive in the forums.

Last, but not least, thanks everyone for digging into this. These are murky issues that require hard thinking and focussed passion. On personal level, I appreciate everyone's time and energy going into this.

Bring on the appropriation discussion (and others, of course).

Colin

Lauren DeSteno

Posts: 1,520
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: Oct 19, 2001

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 12, 2003 1:38 PM

These are the growing pains that make us into a stronger, healthier community.

Onward!

I will repost my response to Jaime's piece to get us back on track...

> Coyote and Jaime,
>
> I don't know quite what to think of the piece yet...
> what is the original definition of Chicano- Chicana-
> Chicanismo, and how is your definition different? Are
> you trying to speak on behalf of people who fall into
> your definition of Chicano- Chicana- Chicanismo?
>
> A formal element of the piece that bothers me a bit
> is the "document in four copies signed in an original
> hand" - why this? And then why post it on the
> internet? Why broadcast it over the radio?
>
> 1. Can an artist redefine a cultural term? The only
> examples that come to mind are a) groups of artists
> that have adopted or redefined (or adopted with the
> intent to redefine) a cultural term; and b) scholars
> that redefine terms based on an artists work. Please
> enlighten me if you can think of any good examples of
> an artist (working alone) redefining a cultural
> term.
>
> 2. I currently see no effect of this piece on
> culture... what is your intent? Do you wish for
> people to adopt or reject this definition? I think
> the audience for this piece (folks already thinking
> about these concepts) may (at the end of their long
> intellectual day) concede to use definitions to
> quantify populations for "practical" purposes, but
> retire with a more personal view of how they define
> themselves.
>
> 3. Here's a question:
>
> If "A Chicano is a person descended from the
> hybridization of Hispanic and Indigenous cultures
> whom endeavors to nurture the new cultural
> possibilities of the historic collision of the Old
> European World and the New World of all of the
> Americas" is a person of European descent whom
> "endeavors to nurture the new cultural possibilities
> of the historic collision of the Old European World
> and the New World of all of the Americas" also a
> Chicano? Why not?
>
> Lauren

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 13, 2003 9:57 PM

> These are the growing pains that make us into a
> stronger, healthier community.

Onward!
>
>
> I will repost my response to Jaime's piece to get us
> back on track...
>
>
> > Coyote and Jaime,
> >
> > I don't know quite what to think of the piece
> yet...
> > what is the original definition of Chicano-
> Chicana-
> > Chicanos, and how is your definition different?

Chicano, Chicana, and Chicanos was only inclusive of persons of Mexican descent. As a result of the Government attempting to "contain" categories of minorities a "bureaucratic" decision was made to encompass all "spanish" languaged people under the Hispanic or Latino grouping. The benefit to the Government was that they could fill a position designed to address a Chicano population (the new hispanic minority is 60% Mexican/Chicano) with a Chilean emigrant as a good fit. Never mind that the Latin American emigrant is often from the corresponding social class( upper middle, and often "white") and most often with none of the socio- economic and racial experiences of Chicanos.

> Are
> > you trying to speak on behalf of people who fall
> into
> > your definition of Chicano- Chicana- Chicanos?
> >

No. I am affording the Chilean immigrant an opportunity to declare his her intent to manifest Chilean/ American cultural enrichment and development under the banner of Chicano;

RE ; As the term Chicano is currently used you must be of Mexican descent and you must identify yourself as an American. Some Mexicans do not think of themselves as Chicano, they are here temporarily and will return to Mexican Culture( Chicano described an individual that was intent on defining a new form of American Culture; Chicanos.)

> > A formal element of the piece that bothers me a
> bit
> > is the "document in four copies signed in an
> original
> > hand"

Coyote Cuatro = Coyote "four" one original for each level/direction/space

- why this? And then why post it on the
> > internet? Why broadcast it over the radio?

It is part of the effort to save the Chicano Studies Program from being "killed" by budget cuts made by the University. It has to do with the enrollment of many students as Hispanics that are not of Mexican Descent and so the Department has no standing in the study of Latin American peoples( an important department as our economies begin to knit; but remember the "conservative conspiracy" wants only to exploit Latin America) The new definition of Chicano with anyone of Latin American ancestry and a desire to "develop " the bicultural possibilities being able to study and investigate the "culture" would force the University to sustain the Chicano Studies Department as a legitimate Academic arm of the University.
> >
> > 1. Can an artist redefine a cultural term? The
> only
> > examples that come to mind are a) groups of
> artists
> > that have adopted or redefined (or adopted with
> the
> > intent to redefine) a cultural term; and b)
> scholars
> > that redefine terms based on an artists work.
> Please
> > enlighten me if you can think of any good examples
> of
> > an artist (working alone) redefining a cultural
> > term.

Am I alone? What of the other Chicano Artists; if they agree with me then can we have a legitimate claim to our own definition of our cultural/ artistic identity?
> >
> > 2. I currently see no effect of this piece on
> > culture... what is your intent? Do you wish for
> > people to adopt or reject this definition? I think
> > the audience for this piece (folks already
> thinking
> > about these concepts) may (at the end of their
> long
> > intellectual day) concede to use definitions to
> > quantify populations for "practical" purposes, but
> > retire with a more personal view of how they
> define
> > themselves.

I identify myself as a Chicano. Ray Robal also identifies himself as a Chicano. If we congress with other Chicanos and formally agree; can we then get our art brothers and sisters to support our individual choice to identify and define ourselves as such?
> >
> > 3. Here's a question:
> >
> > If "A Chicano is a person descended from the
> > hybridization of Hispanic and Indigenous cultures
> > whom endeavors to nurture the new cultural
> > possibilities of the historic collision of the Old
> > European World and the New World of all of the
> > Americas" is a person of European descent whom
> > "endeavors to nurture the new cultural
> possibilities
> > of the historic collision of the Old European
> World
> > and the New World of all of the Americas" also a
> > Chicano?

Hispanic becomes a relevant quality. As does indigenous.

Why not?

But I will tell you a story of the nature of cultures;

I had a foster brother whose eyes were blue and hair blond, and parents from england. When we Chicanos walked out of the districts High Schools on the matter of Chicano Studies centers he signed the manifest and was at my side as we coordinated hundreds of chicanos in the walkouts and protests.

Quana Parker was a very powerful Indian leader.

It really is about your place in that culture; Frida was not a "native" Mexican yet she is seen as a Chicana predecesor.
> >
> > Lauren

coyote 256

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 13, 2003 9:59 PM

> Sam: would it be possible to move this posting to the
> Sarai?
>
> Jaime

Can we do this?

Jaime

Sam Spiczka

Posts: 1,671
From: Sartell, MN
Registered: Jul 20, 2001

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 13, 2003 10:15 PM

> > Sam: would it be possible to move this posting to
> the
> > Sarai?
> >
> > Jaime
>
> Can we do this?
>
> Jaime

Jaime, sorry I forgot to get back to you on that. We're still checking on the status of the Sarai, its future and our relationship to it. As it stands, it looks like this may be the best place for the room to get the most use now and in the future. If you wanted to break off a certain topic (your new work, what it means to be Chicano, etc.) and start a new room on it directly in the Sarai, that may be an option. That reminds me, I have to go retire some rooms now...

Sam

Paul WonSavage

Posts: 31
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Jul 6, 2003

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 15, 2003 10:45 PM

I had the great fortune of runing in to Jamie/Coyote this weekend. What a great guy. We couldn't stop talking... It was great to be able to get everything from him live. I learned a lot about the Chicano/Latino/Hispanic situation... Thanks!!!

I'd like to make one last post on the naming names/trash talking/etc.

I agree we shouldnt be going after people malicously. All you who know me, know I'm not about that. So there.

I'm going to give you short one on the public figure deal, then maybe start a new thread.

All of you who open youself or work to the public has become a pbulic figure. anything you do in public is out there for scrutiny. It is totally appropriate to say MrZ did this_____ and its wrong/right. Or Mrs Z's artwork is good/bad, because_______.

In this particular instance, Coyote's post and experience is with a person who is very public and has been for many years. There is no reason that he couldn't or I couldn't have wrote his name and say 'Are you tlaking about Mr Z.' Then I could go on to say a list of things Mr Z. has said or done. Mr z has put himself in the public forum on his own free will and continues to do so.

It's pretty simple, so here are some examples.

joe = a mythical figure

Trash talking = Joe sucks. My art is way better. His work is a joke. I hate that guy.

Discussion with some negativity and edginess to it= I was talking to Joe last night and he has put in his recent publicity that he started the Sexica shows at the Schwartzenagger studios. Well I was part of those shows and he wasn't, he was just the next door neighbor where we counted money. I told him it wasn't cool and that he shouldn't be taking credit for others works. I just want you all to know that Joe is a liar. He's also told me that he can't remember conversations from a week ago because of all the drugs he did and I asked how could he remember creating the Sexica shows, if he couldn't remember a converation I had with him last week. !!!I sincerely doubt it!!! Watch out for this guy.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Jul 16, 2003 3:34 PM

I agree, Jamie/Coyote is a great guy. And I was suposed to say hiya to him from Celest, the red head photography woman. So, I don't know about Joe Z but Celest says hi Jamie.

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Aug 12, 2003 11:30 AM

Re-Trash:

The Fall season is fast approaching and this "great" guy is antsy about the up coming MAEP elections.

Please note this: "IN MY OPINION"

What Paul refers to is the corruption of the individual by the stark brutality of an art career which drives individuals to "lie( claim to have been part of events and movements), steal( pasts, histories and cultural assets) and cheat( politic, deal and conspire to exclude real artists)" to advance themselves.

It is why I as Coyote was advanced to the MAEP board. I was charged with unraveling that "persona".

The reality is the problem is epidemic! Personal Career politics has rendered the program a tragic "private club" for a group of aging careerists art "players" that have a straggle hold on the integrity of the MAEP.

The system is flawed at it's core with a nebulous and idiopathic organizational system.

It is quietly critiqued by minorities as being benignly racist in the form of it's operation.

It's budget has been cut and may face even more drastic cuts.

We, the artistic community at large( the great unaffiliated 3,500 enrolled artists) need to assert their interest in the program. We need to foment critical revolution of the artistic integrity of our well funded programs( in excess of 1/2 million dollars).

At recent "informal" meetings with foundations and private donors a handful of Hispanic and Latino advocates have been quite brutal in their assessment of the past treatment enjoyed by the Latino Hispanic community as a result of current policies and procedures in the provision of services by both social and cultural institutions. The condemnation have been well received when we have made the point that the "negative" attributes also affect the general community.

Coyote went to join the MAEP to champion for more Hispanic/ Latino shows beyond the grasp of the "Joe Z" but found a wider audience in disgruntled artists of all colors and backgrounds.

The Coyote has not advance a single Hispanic/Latino show in the past year. He has been horrified to discover the disfunction form of the MAEP organization is at the root of the problem.

I need the help of three new like minded individuals on next years board.

I ask for your help in getting new candidates to run who have an interest in reforming the MAEP.

coyote 256

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Oct 13, 2003 10:45 AM

> I was elected to serve on the Artists Board at the
> last annual meeting of the Minneapolis Institute Art
> Minnesota Artists Exhibition Program. I made a
> strong and hostile speech that surprised me in how
> well it was received by the audience. I have been
> troubled ever since on the meaning of my words.
> In short, I ran on the idea that I would be very
> resistant to applicants with shallow and lightweight
> art.
>
> Since the election I have been wondering what the
> Artists who voted for my harsh position heard. I
> know what I said but am still stunned that so many
> agreed with me.
>
> I would love to hear from anyone on the matter.
>
> Jimmy R. Longoria
> aka
> coyote cuatro
>
>
I go here because it is a mirror for me. I too must stand for my words. I have been challenged to account for myself. I shall with history.

coyote 256

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Oct 13, 2003 10:55 AM

> > Culture is what we create, not were we come
> from
> > today. We reinvent, we interpret and we recreate
> the
> > culture we want to live in and add to it
> everyday. No
> > matter our color.
>
> How very true! But we do so out of, and on the
> foundation of our mother culture. At the School of
> the Art Institute of Chicago(full of their self
> importance) I took a color class from a self
> described "colorist" he went on to pronounce that
> color and design were transcultural> not affected
> by the culture of the artist>and therefore all art
> could be "measured" by "universal" rules! I
> disagreed with his viewpoint, and on one assignment I
> had the opportunity to point it out that culture was
> a subcurrent of consciousness.
> There were two other students in the class who were
> "hispanics-in hiding". Both from Wisconsin and
> third generation American. Each readily subscribed
> to the Professor"s idea.
> When we assigned to produce a hidden image in a
> recurring abstract pattern, it surprised everyone
> that the three of us could easily identify the hidden
> imagery in each others work. At that point I felt
> validated on the assumption of Chicano Art; that
> there always is a cultural specific visual
> "language'" that members of the cultural group-no
> matter how much removed from the base culture- still
> possess and exhibit. My fellow Latino students "came
> out " of their cultural closet.
>
> As a militant Artist I firmly believe that one should
> explore that thin stand of cultural legacy in one's
> own family cultural. No matter how thin it is.
> Faith in universality goes in the face nature to
> create strains of cultural mores.
>
> The corn tortilla is precolumbian in origin. The
> flour tortilla comes into existence in northern
> mexico and southern and western North american states
> with large Hispanic populations. It is now
> everywhere in american markets. It is sometimes
> marketed as "Wraps". I know of a Chicano Artist who
> paints on them. I look to evaluate the work in terms
> of cultural fidelity. It is first a gimmick, but
> after that he must address the whole of his
> investigation. I think that is what I mean in the
> difference between lightweight work and the real art.
>
> The Artist does the critical examination of their use
> of elements in their work and challenges their use of
> the element> why use the tortilla?
>
> This is what I mean when I look to art to be true to
> the culture of the Artist.
>
> I am sensitive to the feelings of "anglo" artists who
> do
> think they individually have nothing to draw from. I
> disagree with them. Everyone has a peculiar family
> culture. The Artist that they would be has an
> obligation to sift through their own cultural baggage
> and find the nugget of cultural gold that is theirs
> to refine, amalgamate and cast into the art of their
> family.
>
> The National Geographic Effect must end.( artists
> who find images of cultural elements and coopt them
> into their work just because they are exotic;
> reducing the work to cultural piracy and often
> negating the values of the true origin culture).
>
> At the first meeting of the MAEP, I am supposed to
> show slides of my work and do a 10 minute talk of my
> Art. I will be bringing a hand painted shovel. I
> will be talking of building " Circles" of honorable
> persons who are in possession of similar shovels and
> engaged collectively in acts of cultural war.
>
> Colin you will perhaps understand better than others
> this circle;
>
> Clyde Bellcourt
> Franny Fairbanks
> Shirley Stone
>
> Ona KingBird
> Johnnie Smith
> John Plunkket
> Allen White
> Darlene Lieding
>
>
> > As artists we create and add to culture with all
> of
> > our work, whether enlighten by heritage or
> ethnicity
> > or not. Even the worst art will be added to and
> > influence this generic thing called the
> culture,
> > sadly other forms of expression have so much
> greater
> > an influence on American culture than other
> forms of
> > media that this dialogue means little to the
> big
> > picture.
>
> The big picture is really a myth. All Art exists in
> the small world of each mind. My mural" La Llorona"
> on Franklin Avenue at Chicago is unsigned by me; it
> is a privately own painting by the individual people
> who live there. I know because I often visit in
> disguise and allow people to be the street "docents"
> who proceed proudly to explain the mural to me(I do
> not tell them I am the creator/ because they
> recreate the painting with their interpretation of
> the images. I do not correct them; the mural
> belongs to them, I the Artist am long dead, I
> spiritually died the day I "finished the piece.)
>
> > Think of pop music and the culture it creates -
> belly
> > baring culture of teenage girls - hip hop and
> fubu
> > wearing boys and girls - whatever the essence
> > whatever the weight - flimsy or substantial it
> will
> > contribute to the culture that makes America and
> the
> > same is true for the art world.
>
> As an Artist, I accept responsibility to resist
> "fashion". "Cock Tail Art" ( work designed to fuel
> cocktail party talk) is perhaps running out it's
> course. This is what I mean when I say lightweight
> art. Work intended to be consumed by addled minds
> and needing only to excite for the season, it is
> shallow.
> > The goal of any group that selects and evaluates
> art -
> > should be to hold true to a high standard of
> > execution and high knowledge about that
> execution of
> > the work.
> Craft, Craft, and more Craft!
> After that everything else is debatable and
> > there is no right or wrong.
>
> I disagree. We must decide that some work is not
> Art.
>
> Coyote Cuatro
>
Do I still believe this? Yes.
coyote 256

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Dialogue
Posted: Oct 13, 2003 10:56 AM

> I disagree on the matter of graffiti being exhibited
> at the MIA. The Artists that wave the spray can need
> to address the medium. It has a rich history and a
> great potential; they need to congress and address
> the notion of the craft of spray painting and image
> creation verses the Art of it. It is just another
> discipline; a craft until you turn it ,by great
> skill, into an Art. It must exhibit all the sub
> disciplines of the visual arts. It must address the
> communities' need for it.
> the practitioners need to exhibit that commitment to
> research, re criticize and rework their
> investigations.
>
> I stand ready to champion a show of Graffito art in
> the MAEP; if the writer/tagger community can meet the
> challenge of Art, not just indulge in ego saturation
> Recreation.
>
> coyote cuatro

I stand for this to this day.
coyote 256

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