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Topic: The Value of Art
Replies: 98   Pages: 7   Last Post: Nov 15, 2005 11:44 PM by: Ray Rolfe

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Ann Klefstad

Posts: 95
Registered: Nov 29, 2002
Re: The Value of Art
Posted: Feb 21, 2005 9:28 PM
  Reply

o and as an addendum (to the post I wrote on the previous page--read that first, please)-- I do both art as material, even to doing big old bronze things concerned with mimesis, as well as conceptual work--I'm involved in (latter-day) Fluxus, did a lot of street art a la Fluxus, plus performance stuff, multiples, text and installation work. So I am not interested in reductive definitions--obviously art is what artists do, and they do a great variety of things at the moment.


Message was edited by: Ann Klefstad at Feb 22, 2005 9:07 AM

Walter Albertson

Posts: 22
From: Saint Paul
Registered: Jul 18, 2001
Re: The Value of Art
Posted: Feb 22, 2005 10:07 PM
  Reply

Ann, your writing is thorough and precise. I hope I don't muddy the water with more remarks.

>"I'm not trying to be combative."
Actually I think I was being a little combative in my previous postings but only playfully combative because the ideas are interesting. My guess is that Robert Jensen and maybe Galenson are both trying to be helpful in some way; pointing out that "Successful artists, whether we like it or not, know how the game is played."

Yet, I find certain assumptions might be questioned. Beginning with:
>"Importance in art"
>"the primary source of genuine importance in art is innovation. Important artists are innovators whose work changes the practices of their successors."

I'm a busy man, lead me right to the IMPORTANT STUFF.
Yes, there are leading edges of innovation. But the leading edge of a wave would not exist without the collective wave or the ocean of all working artists, from out of which new work continually grows. By validating only a handful out an army of creative workers I fear that a significant creative force for the benefit of society is overlooked to society's detriment.

>"all art has not been rooted in sense and materiality."
Maybe not, but, for example, 'thinking about music' is qualitatively different from actually hearing music. You can remember a melody or a song but experiencing the actual physical sensation of soundwaves striking your eardrums... isn't that preferable?

>"there was no dream time when markets did not play a significant role in artistic activity."
>"one might even go so far as to say that our modern conception of art and of the identity of artists are inseparable from market forces."
My argument is that there is something intrinsic to art making that is incompatible with marketing concepts:
Art is not competitive.
Artists create because of an inner necessity to express themselves and they will keep creating in spite of a lack of attention or negative attention, and without economic motivation.
This is due to a desire to share something of themselves; an inherent generosity of spirit; It is exuberance an overflowing of energy.
Art is a rare type of endeavor wherein it's practitioners must often 'work' to support their (art)'work'.
The motivation to make art is not based on profitability. So how can it compete?

>"it is to the advantage of artists to see how their enterprise resembles that of other disciplines"
I would say that art and science are both interested in forms of truth. But where science is true to objective results and repeatable, verifiable observation, art is true to an inner directive based on feeling (verve) (which, I suppose, might be seen as romanticism).

Therefore, if an artist must contrive to make an art product appear to be "important" so that it is better positioned within some kind of market or gain recognition within a current fashionable coterie, it would be affectation; playing false to their own inner life.

A Paradox:
Look at our present social environment: A monstrous clanging uber-super-market with incessant demands for attention in every public and even private space. Unending barrages of audio/visual stimuli manufactured by highly skilled technicians, (some of whom went to art school) crafting finely tuned messages to persuade and manipulate our behavior or otherwise distract us and influence our own thoughts.....If there was an antidote; a new perspective; a respite from of all the shouting. How would you discover it? How could it disengage from the clamoring and yet clamor for itself? "HEY !, LOOK AT ME !!! ... I'M THE SUBTLEST OF THEM ALL !!!"

Ann Klefstad

Posts: 95
Registered: Nov 29, 2002
Re: The Value of Art
Posted: Feb 22, 2005 11:05 PM
  Reply

Hi Walter-- Very nicely put, I especially like "I'M THE SUBTLEST OF THEM ALL!"

Yeah, there are many ways in which artmaking analogizes to other kinds of work or creativity, especially in recent decades, but there are ways in which it does not so analogize. You do a great job of pointing them out. Thanks--

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: The Value of Art
Posted: Jul 14, 2005 10:13 AM
  Reply

A Paradox:
Look at our present social environment: A monstrous clanging uber-super-market with incessant demands for attention in every public and even private space. Unending barrages of audio/visual stimuli manufactured by highly skilled technicians, (some of whom went to art school) crafting finely tuned messages to persuade and manipulate our behavior or otherwise distract us and influence our own thoughts.....If there was an antidote; a new perspective; a respite from of all the shouting. How would you discover it? How could it disengage from the clamoring and yet clamor for itself? "HEY !, LOOK AT ME !!! ... I'M THE SUBTLEST OF THEM ALL !!!"

" a mind is a terrible thing to waste"

coyote A

Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001
Re: The Value of Art
Posted: Aug 22, 2005 11:18 PM
  Reply

no coment

Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001
Re: The Value of Artists'
Posted: Nov 8, 2005 6:16 PM
  Reply

Art is the evidence of Artists'

The real value is the artists.

What is the value of artists?

Jimmy longoria

Posts: 112
From: Minnesota
Registered: Oct 6, 2005
Re: The Value of Artists'
Posted: Nov 9, 2005 7:33 PM
  Reply

> Art is the evidence of Artists'
>
> The real value is the artists.
>
> What is the value of artists?

I disagree. What I make is more important than who I am.
For example; the "LLorona " mural at Franklin and Chicago in MPLS is more than me. More people see it, more understand it, more value it than they do me. That makes it Art.

The moment any Artist think himself/herself more important than what they make, they become "craftsmen". The career is more important than the work. That is what is wrong with most of what you see as "art" my friend.

Coyote i

Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001
Re: The Value of Artists'
Posted: Nov 10, 2005 5:11 PM
  Reply
La Llarona.jpg (61.5 K)

Good perspective there. It's importaint to remember that.
I was thinking more of *that you are* rather then *who you are*.
If you didn't exsist, how many things, relationships, directions, reactions, meaningfull works of art, would not have been created?

Not that the artist is more importaint then the work, I do like this question, (what if the artist is the work? Or working in the medium of life? What when art is transparent performance of domestic activity?) but more valuable, as a human with potential.

You are capable of hundreds of "LLorona" or more in your lifetime. Can you accept your value without pride?

[I admit, the 3 sentance lead in was just to revive the thread. This is one of the best threads on here, maybe]

""""
"Yes, there are leading edges of innovation. But the leading edge of a wave would not exist without the collective wave or the ocean of all working artists, from out of which new work continually grows. By validating only a handful out an army of creative workers I fear that a significant creative force for the benefit of society is overlooked to society's detriment." ~Walter Albertson
"""""

http://www.lallorona.com/trailer.html .
http://www.lallorona.com/La_index.asp .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Llorona .

Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001
Re: The Value of Artists'
Posted: Nov 15, 2005 11:44 PM
  Reply
LaLlorona Revisited1.wmv (1,001.3 K)
La Llorona revisit3.wmv (1,013.8 K)
La Llorona visit4.wmv (891.3 K)

I was walking by and discovered your Mural.

I went back the next day and made some video of the cracking paint because it looks real.

There are more, but I'll post later.

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