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Topic: Dialogue
Replies: 384   Pages: 26   Last Post: Feb 13, 2006 10:37 PM by: Ray Rolfe

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jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 10:28 AM
  Reply

> Jaime - sorry, I am a bit confused on your
> process...lemme see if I have it straight.
>
> 1. Hang out and get the criteria for the show
> together.

Forget it. Lets let the "post cards" sent by all to one site determine the candidates for the show. We will have Captain homeless chair the review committee( volunteers who attend Mr. Villareal's Stone Soup gathering at________?(Jimmy R. Longoria,MAEP board member can not be part of this committee so that when the proposal is submitted to MAEP he can vote and advocate without a conflict of interest.)
>
> 2. Do we do a call for entries first, or do we
> propose it to the MAEP first? I think even if MIA
> MAEP doesn't accept it, we should still go through
> with the show.

We go over all of mnartists.org in search of M.M. Art and sent "post cards" to one site( Please help Mr Colin who we talk about in the third person, where is that super hero when we need him!)
>
> 3. PR, publicity, and pissing people off. Create a
> larger dialogue about the quality of Minnesota art.

We need a "critical writer" to write and article about the proposal; A show of Visual Hotdish; art that is just good enough but not great.
>
> Actually, in all honesty, I think a debate about
> quality is essentially circular, because everyone
> will always have their own standards, and are seldom
> willing to change their minds, unless they are
> looking to change their minds.

I will disagree with you on this. I am not being catty here, but look to the history of Art; categorical progress is integral to all "lines" of art. Periodic reviews of history with new directions of Quality Points are the norm. The Dialogue was started with the purpose of creating common language to discuss art. Pleas note the near consensus on the Quality of Sam's Sculpture. It is not out of friendship nor comradeship that his work is well received. It is valued independent of his lame brain rants(just joshing).

It does take open and conflicted dialogue to get to clarity. The Artist knows that after the exchanges in this post if he is praised it beyond genuine.
>
> From my standpoint, the purpose of this show would be
> to use the ruse of "quality" as a call to action - to
> engage artists and the general public in a lively
> debate about what they like. To get people out there
> looking and talking about art - defending it,
> purchasing it, making it, etc.

As Sam points out that is what we are already doing. It takes a small dedicated circle of actionaries to foment the larger discussion that the state of Minnesota Art must have. It takes time. We will succeed in creating the Greater Dialogue by our efforts.
>
> That leads me to think that there should definitely
> be an interactive element to this show, a website, a
> message board, a public demonstration - something.
> It's not totally clear to me yet, but we can figure
> it out.
>
> Bat Cave!

Hey! Bat Girl we do need a 'digital' poster to e-mail to persons invited to show.

Marketing 101 Branding of the show!!!

Mediocre Minnesota: A show of Visual Hotdish

Idea; design it in the square format of the mnartist.org sites and each of us promoters will post it on our individual sites with our art. It will also then in get it on the home page a good many times. Just like those ballet people.

Are you up for it?

coyote 256

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 10:36 AM
  Reply

> this sounds really engaging! lauren, i like the idea
> of employing a "ruse" in order to "trick" people into
> actively participating in a dialogue about what he or
> she perceives as "quality" art. i would love to be a
> part of this, if y'all will have me

Brendon are you really up for this. It will require courage when we start to get attacked for "insulting" the lurkers, and faint of heart and every proud Minnesotan.

Can you drawup an e-mail to send to everyone whose work gets nominated for this show explaining that we are not ridiculing their work but acknowledging that it is whole and wholesome just like "Hot dish".

Art done solely for the Artist's own enjoyment has to be clearly understood as at the core of the concept of Minnesota Mediocre.

Can you write that well? Then lets have it dude!

"trick" or "treat"

coyote 256

Sam Spiczka

Posts: 1,671
From: Sartell, MN
Registered: Jul 20, 2001
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 10:46 AM
  Reply

> Art done solely for the Artist's own enjoyment has to
> be clearly understood as at the core of the concept
> of Minnesota Mediocre.

There you go. If this is bright and clear, it could work.

And "lame brain rants..."? Puhleassseeee...

Sam

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 10:48 AM
  Reply

>
> I think there is a blanket assumption that arts are
> good for people, and that we should fund them, but no
> real active dialogue on these subjects outside the
> art community. And when there is no active dialogue
> on the costs and benefits of art in a community, it
> becomes easier just to cut arts funding out of the
> state budget.

Past tense Lauren, the cuts have been made and the future cuts are already in some one's file folder ready for the next round.

We are entering a dark ages in our culture. Our conservative right is engaged in ideological war with Non-western Conservative anti-freedom ideologies. The battle field is our civil rights. Artists have historically have been the trailblazers in societal freedom. If they as a class become impoverished and ineffectual the radical right takes us in a regressive step to the darkness of our history.

We, the People lose if we do not combat this trend.

Jimmy R. Longoria

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 11:10 AM
  Reply

Sam, how the hell does some one your age have such wisdom. Your totally right. But you must recognize what it means when a respected critic "knows that he likes bad art". We are in deep doo doo when he puts in writing! In Minnesota we have a huge population that goes along with his 'likes'. And he likes "bad" art.

I cook awesome Tejano food for my guests with the same ingredients others make dismal hot dish. What makes the difference?

Intent and critical review.

If we offer a show that purposely does not require a ambitious intent and we do not critically examine it, then we can cite that body of work and method of production as the definitive benchmark for mediocre work.

Please focus on a proposal of your own work for the MAEP. If you think you might need other artists in the
show with you; scout for steel sculptures on the net.

Do not worry about weight on the floor. There are possibilities. Virtual display in the gallery and installation in the Park across the street( it is part and parcel of the MIA's non-profit identity)


Get a great central concept for the show, write write write!! Hurry get the proposal in in the next round. We kick them around for months and artists can rework them!!!!

Idea:
How hard to is it make 15' x 8' 'sails' of steel half pipe floating 9' above the ground for a Gabriel to "tag" and have the steel as it rusts rip and destroy his " writing " on the surface?

coyote 256

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 11:15 AM
  Reply

> > Art done solely for the Artist's own enjoyment has
> to
> > be clearly understood as at the core of the
> concept
> > of Minnesota Mediocre.
>
> There you go. If this is bright and clear, it could
> work.
>
> And "lame brain rants..."? Puhleassseeee...
>
> Sam
For those new to the Dialogue; I hold this young man in great esteem for his maturity and insightfulness in the matters of Art. My jabs at him are in affectionate play.

Jimmy R. Longoria
Jaime
C4
Coyote Cuatro
coyote 16
Coyote 256

Brendon Wenzel

Posts: 42
From: minneapolis, mn
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 3:03 PM
  Reply

> Brendon are you really up for this. It will require
> courage when we start to get attacked for "insulting"
> the lurkers, and faint of heart and every proud
> Minnesotan.
>
> Can you drawup an e-mail to send to everyone whose
> work gets nominated for this show explaining that we
> are not ridiculing their work but acknowledging that
> it is whole and wholesome just like "Hot dish".
>
> Art done solely for the Artist's own enjoyment has to
> be clearly understood as at the core of the concept
> of Minnesota Mediocre.
>
> Can you write that well? Then lets have it dude!
>
> "trick" or "treat"
>
> coyote 256

yes, i am certainly up for this. there is no reason to doubt my courage or resolve concerning matters of art, and i will prove this to you. i am drafting the e-mail that you speak of this afternoon and i will send it to you this evening. and, yes... i'm a damn fine writer

Minnesota Mediocre

Posts: 22
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 3:29 PM
  Reply

> i am drafting the e-mail that you speak of this
>afternoon and i will send it to you this evening. and,
>yes... i'm a damn fine writer


OK, make sure candidates receive and respond to the E-mail before we steal their images to the Minnesota Mediocre gallery like I just did for the test subject Rollie Erickson whom I do not consider mediocre at all. It's just a test, thats the first postcard I received from C4
~R

Minnesota Mediocre

Posts: 22
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 3:39 PM
  Reply

Oh sh*t, check out the homepage, while it's up there.
http://www.mnartists.org

haha clasic

~R

Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 3:52 PM
  Reply

Hey now, whos sending postcards of my old Flower painting hmmm? Don't you know I'm a "genious" in no way associated with mediocrity!
Heheh
~R

Brendon Wenzel

Posts: 42
From: minneapolis, mn
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 5:34 PM
  Reply

> Hey now, whos sending postcards of my old Flower
> painting hmmm? Don't you know I'm a "genious" in no
> way associated with mediocrity!
> Heheh
> ~R

ray... 'twas i who sent a postcard of your painting. it was, in no way, connected to the m.m. thing happening. i wanted to show my friend your work, and i really liked the flower one. would you be interested in doing a collaborative painting sometime? right now, i'm working out of my home in uptown. let me know what you think. wenz0015@umn.edu

Colin Rusch

Posts: 1,435
Registered: Oct 16, 2002
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 5:50 PM
  Reply

Hello Minnesota Mediocre Conspirators,

I finally read your plans carefully and have a few thoughts.

1. You absolutely need permission from the artists to put their work in the MM profile. I will need to verify that artists have agreed to let you show their work. Their email confirmations should be adequate. Basic human decency, trust, and respect are at the heart of a healthy, nourishing community. If you violate this requirement, I will pull down the profile without question or warning. Disclaimers are not sufficient. I pulled the work Ray posted for this reason.

2. mnartists.org is committed to the principal of democracy. Part of that means anyone in Minnesota who considers themselves an artist can post their work. MM's standards for what is Art are not the same as mnartists.org's. Your audience is much smaller than mnartists.org. Please be very clear about who you approach and why. If you approach a bunch of people who do not know about the MAEP nor care about it, your message falls on deaf ears. You may also insult a community of people that are irrelevant to your project. But they are not irrelevant to mnartists.org. Another part of democracy is giving people a voice and a venue to share their thoughts, i.e. get to it.

3. You are attempting to use mnartists.org as a medium and a vehicle for community transformation. I applaud you for that. I am attempting the same. However, the success of mnartists.org to make a long-term economic impact in your lives as people and artists depends on a critical mass of participants. For instance, among other opportunities we can start leveraging our communal buying power. Developing widespread support for more coherent action and standards in the Arts community is a difficult and slippery task. Please keep in mind the unintended and indirect impact of your methods. I will be considering this. If you start to undermine mnartists.org's ability to develop that widespread support, I will respond in whatever way is most appropriate.

4. Regarding the Dilbert comment, it was flip and poorly thought through. I am a liaison between artists, arts organizations, the rest of the people working on mnartists.org, and the general public. However, the people working on this project are far from cartoon characters. Everyone involved in this project is either a practicing artist or has devoted a significant part of their professional life to the endeavor of the Arts. They have hearts, minds, souls, and their own articulate, insightful methods for self-expression. Sam, I know you did not mean to insult anyone. But, it is important that everyone understands that the talented, exceptional people working on this project are not just cogs in a machine. They are wholly committed to bettering our lives and theirs through social and cultural action.

5. Last but not least, I would like to address Coyote's mention of my soul. I do not take offense at it. But it does provide an opportunity to address something important to me, how I do this job, and what I think is a basic misconception for many people about Art and Artmaking. I approach this project and my position with it not as a sacrifice but as an art project. As an artist and a human being I consider myself a social and cultural actor. Part of my art practice is a commitment to sustainability. I will not let one part of my life continually feed off of another. I must develop symbiotic relationships to stay sane, healthy, continue making art, and appreciating life. The same is true of my work on a social, institutional, and cultural level. Rather than using a trope of death and resurrection, I think about transformation, fulfilling potential, and efficacy. I bring this up because there is violence as well as gentleness in making real, long-term change. Our methods in making change set precedents for the successive order of things. This is something I want you to consider as you move forward with MM. It is a great idea and has long legs. Make sure they keep moving in the direction you propose and intend.

Colin

Sam Spiczka

Posts: 1,671
From: Sartell, MN
Registered: Jul 20, 2001
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 6:32 PM
  Reply

> 4. Regarding the Dilbert comment. It was flip and
> poorly thought through. I am a liaison between
> artists, arts organizations, the rest of the people
> working on mnartists.org, and the general public.
> However, the people working on this project are far
> from cartoon characters. Everyone involved in this
> project is either a practicing artist or has devoted
> a significant part of their professional life to the
> endeavor of the Arts. They have hearts, minds, souls,
> and their own articulate, insightful methods for
> self-expression. Sam, I know you did not mean to
> insult anyone. But, it is important that everyone
> understands that the talented, exceptional people
> working on this project are not just cogs in a
> machine. They are wholly committed to bettering our
> lives and theirs through social and cultural action.
>

I certainly did not mean to insult anyone. I do not believe engineers/web designers are denigrated by the dilbert reference. My father-in-law happens to be a dilbert. He revels in the comparison. There are dilbert cartoons littering their cubicles. Dilbert is a very wise and insightful character that just happens to be mired in an absurd world.

Sam

Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 6:35 PM
  Reply

Wow Colin, I've so much respect for you. It's cool that you took the post down. I was going to do that today after the thing played out, thankyou.
You said some very exciting things about being a sustainable community and I'm very grateful and in much agreement. I don't want to undermine anyone or anything. Right now I just see potential so extraordinary I wish everyone inclusion and the best. Thanks for helping me see the depth of this. man, i think i'm gonna cry

Hi Brendon,
Cool, I'm happy you apresheate that painting, whos your friend? A little side note about the flowersnow, thats the painting an organization called Free Arts of Minnesota wanted me to donate for an auction once upon a time about a year ago. They help kids with disabilities and go into schools i think.. But I was all disorganized transportation wise so I never did get it to them..
A collaborative painting sounds like a neat idea! I'll communicate with you more in e-mail.
~R

Gabriel Combs

Posts: 1,497
Registered: Jun 16, 2002
Re: Dialogue
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 9:36 PM
  Reply

Manifesting
Art
Seperatism...

"the pain, the remedy"

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