Free posty, but no posty?

[purenoumena]

Just a general discussion...

I'm curious why more galleries and artists aren't using the opportunities and other forums for posting events and calls for art... It seems like a good free resource to reach a direct audience allowing for potential constructive feedback or dialogue. I know we host a lot of events at AE but sometimes it feels a bit odd to be the one posting most often. Shouldn't more people be taking advantage of this resource too?

...or am I just crazy?

[Sam Spiczka]

You're not crazy. I have no idea why more people don't utilize the forum. I can't recall the exact number, but when mnartists did a poll a year or two back asking people how they used the site, only something like 18% were even aware there was a forum. Something like that mystifies me.

[Ray Rolfe]

I don't know why.

Sometimes I feel like I (me as an artist, homeless and such political clout) scare away a more active user base. But it can't be just me. Shoot, I'm no one....just a MINNESOTA ARTIST...... Why would other artists be "afraid" to communicate amongst us regulars??
I don't get it either, but I accept exclusive voice.

If no one else wants it, I'll babble on about my experience........

But, I'm saying TAKE IT! I'm no one. Minnesota Art Audiology/documentary could be so much more....

Billy Jay is the only one who goes new level.
I don't even follow the new tired articles saying what I should think.


SPONTANEOUS community art is where it's at.

[BraindeadAesthetic]

Originally Posted by Sam Spiczka

You're not crazy. I have no idea why more people don't utilize the forum. I can't recall the exact number, but when mnartists did a poll a year or two back asking people how they used the site, only something like 18% were even aware there was a forum. Something like that mystifies me.

If only 18% of the artists are even aware the sight there has been a dramatic failure to raise awareness. But as I was looking at posts this evening it lists 1426 members of the forum with 137 active which is defined as posting within the last 30 days. Of the people signed up to the forum less than 10% ever post here. Ray, Gabe, Sam, William, and a few others post often, but other than that there is a lack of conversation. (by the way Ray - thanks for posting the link to the Article on JL)

It reminds me of art school back in the 80's when apathy in the student body seemed the norm. I have posted shows from a couple of arts groups who had info in the calender but that was it. They didn't post in the forum or on Craig's List. In all cases the people running the arts groups are energetic, smart, and seem to have it together.........but this area seems to be nothing to them. J-ME does a good job but other than that, no-one.

Perhaps it is the lack of critical discussion. The weekly articles do not give or receive any discussion. They all tend to the (yawn) unreadable or terse. Or as this weeks top post articles say, they aren't real articles, go get the "Rake". I never read the "Rake". I have picked it up a couple of times, but it's just another listing of bands playing and barf. (my opinion only).

The front page of the entire site is given over to these articles, and they do not speak to the artist in the community. "Give an artist a service/product they don't want and they won't use it." ************REDACTED TO NOT INSULT OUR SPONSOR**************

Or perhaps flyover land just needs to get a grip. This website is a great opportunity for the arts in Minnesota, and almost no galleries partake. Perhaps the art buying public, collectors and investors, are not aware of the site.

In all, it takes all 137 or less of us active members to actually create an artistic discussion.

I am writing this post as the TV news is covering the collapse of the 35w river bridge. Maybe we should earmark money for infrastructure instead of bombing the hell out of foreign countries.

So having said all that ^^^^^^^^ we should all get together at Altered Esthetics on Friday and hang out.

[BraindeadAesthetic]

In just a few days the active members of this forum went down by about 10%. In another thread Gabe states we need more art critics writing here on the arts. Perhaps. What we need is more artists writing on the arts and discussing art.

From my previous post on this thread I have heard that it was taken as a complaint against the management of this forum. That is not true. It was making a discussion point on the lack of participation by local galleries and artists to engage in a discussion or even post their events in the forum. If the board wants to discuss anything it should be brainstorming how to get more artists aware of and active in this forum.

One of the problems is this forum competes with the entire world wide arts community including private blogs, forums, et al. It becomes hard to see what differentiates this forum from the rest.

On Craigs list arts forum about half of the threads end up being long winded whines about or attacks on different members. That kind of activity puts off casual viewers who then don't return. Looking for a lively discussion of the arts they get petty bickering. This problem has also surfaced here. It turns people off. Critical discussion of art and or specific artwork almost never comes up in the discussions.

So the challenge for us artists is to write on the arts, ours or others. We where all taught some form of critical reviewing in art school. Lets apply it to specific work, or shows as a whole.

So that's it, go to a show, write something about it, post it. Or post a an image of yours with an artists statement about the piece and let's discuss it.

That is whet Sam is doing with his on line book project, a discussion about his art. How refreshing.

[Gabriel Combs]

Those percentages are hard to call. They may be effected by the high number of spammers, which regularily get cleaned out by the admins, possibly directing changing the numbers you see.

These forums have been going a long time, and in my opinion, most folks don't like to comment or state anything. More like to read than participate. You have to consider also, as stated recently by Sam, the number of people who are unaware that the forums even exist. Why is this, on might ask? There is a tab right up at the front page, for the world to see. I believe this is because most "artists" are not interested in the work of other on this site, the other features the site offers, or the possible discussions, unless its about their own work. Most artists *will not participate* in anything they do not view as advertising them personally, propelling their own "career", or that does'nt pay them. This is a harsh reality that i've proven on small levels to myself a number of times. Believe my Altered, I did not favor criticsm by critics first, as you could probably find examples of waaay back in some threads. I am convinced, and stand by, a need for more criticsm. And the critic needs to get paid to make time to do it. And the criticsm should be harsh if needed, but well articulated and backed up by a firm hold on art history, while maintaining a full awares of whats going on right now.

I'm going to say it outright, I think the forums are slow, and likely always will be, because "artists" cannot see past themselves, and in MN are passive-aggressive, self-absorbed, ect. There is a lot of bad art, or mediocre art filling galleries because "artists" are drinking with the "right" people. There are also too many galleries. I don't like the way a lot of galleries, or operators, operate. I don't like a lot of the galleries by what they show. Some may think myself self-absorbed also, but anyone knows its "professional suicide" to speak as I do, and it will only get worse. Any artist wanting to "make it" locally, would'nt say or act the way that I do. I used to support a certain Chicano artist you know, because of him speaking out on such issues, but I am not one for bigotry, which was the bottom line in his drive. I don't like artists that get posessed with revenge for the world not putting them up on a pedastal, therefore lashing out at the scene and people around them, defeating themselves.

Notice how only the handful of people have replied here to Purenoumenas' question, yet many people appear to have read it. Possibly, you answer because you're genuinely interested in discussion, but know you likely have nothing to gain professionally. Artists are realistically market-driven these days, as one has to survive and at least buy paint to eat. But their are too many, all trying to get the same slice. So anyone that is producing real work gets a cloud thrown over them and often does'nt get seen.

There are what I consider to be immoral practices going down all the time by gallery folk. I was in the Will Work For Food show this past spring. Yuri, formerly of Outsiders and Others, "curated" the entire group in to a show at a cafe, charging commission and requiring the works to be on canvas or framed. The show was already put together. Thats not curating in my opinion. I did'nt participate, even tho I had framed and work on canvas, because I thought it was ridiculous and a mistake to let the "grass-roots" sort of thing be curated at all. The work was done for Yuri. One artist said they did not want to participate, buy did'nt want to go against Yuris' wishes. Sad. This is not what we need, but is a quick example of the "artists profile" in this town. Not eveyone, mind you, but *what is* the motivation of artists here? That they would'nt be interested in paricipating in a forum put on by the McKnight and Walker? Afraid of opinions different than their own? Partly, I think thats it. Too interested in their incestual cluster-fuck opinions they spit swap in the same tight-knit groups? Somewhat, I do believe. The work, or lack of real interesting work, speaks for itself. Sure, anyone can call themselves and artist, but there is'nt room or money to support it. Some can pretend there is, by throwing art parties and inviting all their friends to again, cluster-fuck with, but i'm not interested in this.

As a foot-note, i'm not an acidic venoumous asshole in general. My nature is quite the opposite, but I think someone has to say things, even if they don't come out as well said as i'd like. This is why i've been calling for Fallon to get paid to do more of it, because he'll get research done and not give a fluffy review of a fluffier and fluffier art scene that strives to get back to something from years past while not moving forward with any voices saying anything that needs to be said. You should hear the talk in some of these circles. They stab each other in the back as soon as one walks away, but never to the face, never out where it can be discussed and progress can be made.

Close more galleries.

More criticsm.

Fewer artists where I have to actually see them hanging.

Gotta run an make breakfast and play Pokemon and Legos and all that.

Cheers,

Gabriel Combs

(sorry for all the typos, i've not time to clean it up)

[Ray Rolfe]

Well written and came across comprehensively rather then acidic. Yuri owes me 35 bucks!

[BraindeadAesthetic]

Gabe wrote a long thought provoking response to the question posed by purenoumena (JME) and demands a well thought out reply. This may not be it but here goes (and it’s long).

1. Statistics. Sam quoted a number, I have no idea where he got it but that doesn’t matter. I simply posted the numbers from the bottom of the main forum page. These numbers suggest a lot of people have signed on to the forum but only a few actually post. As Gabe states, this is probably the case, people reading, but no response; hence no posting. Without the full stats from Walker/Mcknight who really knows. What we know is the handles of the people posting is a short list.
2. Artists are only interested in something which promotes/enhances themselves. This is the most important observation Gabe makes here. It is so obvious yet overlooked. Our generation is only looking out for ourselves. If it doesn’t benefit me directly, screw it. This is the area I think needs a lot of research, as it were, done. If our sponsors, Walker/McKnight want a talking point this is the hot one. I do not know what it could take to get around this barrier. The me only generation is here and screw you.
3. Next Gabe states emphatically our need for critics and unadulterated criticism of the artwork being shown in the galleries. When first I read his comment this morning I was curt and brushed it off. But I thought about what he was saying all day (I was helping a friend move, no mental stress). My opinion has always been to let the artwork speak for itself. But Gabe is talking in the art historical sense about art criticism, were well thought out, art historical/philosophical writing on art is presented as an argument pro or con a specific artist or art work. I read a lot of art critic’s books. Gabe is correct in stating we do not see any of that sort of discourse applied to the local art scene. After thinking I believe he is correct. We don’t just need reviews of what is in the galleries, we need actual art criticism. Is M. Fallon the guy? He is at least a start, he is at times trying to write critical articles. About pay??????historically the newspapers have paid for the articles, here that is not going to happen.
4. Our Chicano Friend. JL is a good artist doing good work in the community. I think Ray’s posting of the article in the Saint Paul Pioneer press shows this. Jl is also very smart, I spent a couple hours at an opening talking to him. Gabe knows him much better than I do. but my take, from afar as it were, is of an artist who sees an unjust system and is fighting to make it right. And he enjoys the fight. Now the problem as I see it seems to be that JL accuses a lot of individuals of racism specifically and calls them on it, or FLAMES them in forums. Point of fact. I am a pasty white guy of northern European descent. I experience institutional racism almost every day second hand as I work with economically disadvantaged individuals in the housing market. So when JL tells me about his perceived racism, I believe him. The issue here seems to be accusing individuals. Systemic racism, or institutionalize raciism is difficult to get rid of and the people in the institution may not even be aware of it happening. That is why, no matter how annoying it is to hear him, we need to hear him. The Terms of Service Issue, That seems to be something else. JL, Love your work - good health.
5. The Yuri thing. Don’t know Yuri. I only show framed work to start with - it is unprofessional to show unframed work. The rest of the paragraph seems dead on. Gabe talks about the incestuous nature of certain clicks. This has always been the case. I have never been a member of one of the clicks, all of my friends are non-artists factory workers. They don’t buy art, care about art, or discuss art. Though they think my pictures are cool. Lots o beer, tattoos, and dope. However, what Gabe is talking about is once again obvious to any casual observer at an art opening. A mediocre talent has an entourage at the opening sucking up to that individual and talking about how good they are. you will in these cases note long discussions on the relevance and importance of the TITLE of the work in question.
6. Gabe calls for paying critics to do actual criticism. This is one of the main talking point which the Mcknight. Walker group should address. If there was money for art criticism would it increase participtiaon? Paying criticst will not, however, solve the low participation in this forum, only we the actual artist can solve that issue. I read the whats up now review, I read/ looked at the article/whatever of RICHARD JOHNSON'S PHOTOS from the current aE Issue 20.1: The Things We Keep email. This is good stuff, especially R. Johnson’s photos. But even well written and shown articles don’t get repsonces in the forums. Will any art criticism? 20 years ago an art critic could make your career as an artist, now it is all just marketing. That said I think more art criticism would be good for the arts in general.
7. Closing galleries/showing opportunities. Gabe, this is just plain mean spirited. Galleries close because they are not a viable business. The individual artist do not matter. Calling for a shut down of venues to see artwork is a very bad idea as it shuts the arts out to an even greater group of people. If anything we should have more galleries/.venues to see and experience artwork. The visual arts have been pushed to the side in our culture and closing all galleries or venues to view real art only leaves the posters on display in Target for the general populace. For an artist to call for a close of all showing opportunities in our community well……… a profanity comes to mind. If you don’t like what is being shown, write a critically scathing essay about the show in question. Or just don't go see the show. But to close galleries and shut out people, well, nuf said.

And Ray, Get cash, no unseemly checks from this Yuri curator guy. Whatever.

Gabes work can be seen at:

http://www.mnartists.org/Gabriel_Combs

http://statikkineticsm.blogspot.com/

PILBOX art on EBAY

http://www.myspace.com/pilbox

I just previewed this post. What a long winded bunch of !@#$. Gabe I apologize for the ebay link not being there but ???????????

Have a good one.

[Sam Spiczka]

I enjoyed the post as well, Gabe. I'm naturally cut off from the Twin Cities art scene so I was interested in the forum as a way to connect with people outside of my daily circle, which mostly consists of work in the shop. I don't know why more people here in "out-state" don't use this resource. Perhaps we fear alienating any of the "cool-kids" in the Metro area? I don't know, if anyone wanted to string me up by my own words they'd have plenty to choose from here. But at least some have had the courage to toss around ideas and words in a public venue for the amusement, edification and disgust of others. My participation has dwindled as my work-load has increased and my need to speak has reduced as well. Sometimes I read back through old, classic threads and they're just as relevant today - so why repeat ourselves? Unless new people and new ideas are introduced, we're just cooking with the same ingredients.

[Gabriel Combs]

I don't think all galleries should be closed, just some. Thats not what I said. I know I come across as mean spirited on some points, and I don't care. If i'm mis-interpeted, its a risk i'll take. We have many galleries, many struggling galleries that often don't last long. You are not going to get more work to sell if most of its mediocre, no matter how many galleries there are. Close the doors to some and sell more work thats of a higher caliber in the better galleries.

What you learned to be "professional" may be just that, but it does'nt make what was not learned in art school unprofessional. I don't think a piece should be leaning against a wall on the floor, but I don't believe the framed "rule" to be worth much if folks find ways to hang various found objects. I"ve done work that would be taken wrongly if it were framed. I don't like the idea that the cost to the artists goes up with all those such requirements, especially because it alienates groups that can't afford to play this framed, slides taken, submission fees, endless bullshit $ sucking the life out of the work/artists before they make it out of their studio. *Much of what is learned in art school is bullshit, bottom line*. I'm not trying to insult you here, John, but trying to remove obstacles and false ideas that artists can't teach themselves the majority of what is paid for.

JL fooled me the same way. I admire his painting. I enjoy it. I believe the world does need to hear a lot of the things he has to say, but without the bigotry. Thats what it is. And how about the sexism? Need points, go read some old threads.

My post was'nt so much in response to the original question, but it seemed and oppurtunity to discuss other things, including that.

There are few dollars for artists, thats why this discussion has to happen in some way, somewhere. There is crap art everywhere I look. Everyone calls themself an artist now, and thats fine. But I believe that fewer good places to show, more criticsm (Fallon gets paid here, as do other writers, thus the statement of take money/give money) about the shows and the work, and the fewer dollars supporting the better work makes sense. People don't want this to happen because everyone calls themself an artist, and no one wants to hurt anyones feelings by telling them their art is'nt very good. People need to look around and sort through the stuff thats out there and admit to themselves where their work falls. Then get out of the way of the artists that produce better work, and maybe even buy work from them and be inspired by them, if they've the cash to do it. Instead of throwing the money submitting, framing, buying art supplies from stores that overcharge on stuff that they've convinced "artists" they need. Cut the fat and support someone else in some way. Nine out of ten of you, your work does'nt move me. I don't like it, and neither does the general public. Not even the ones who like art. Its just that way. Harsh? Mean-spirited? Critical? So be it. I've nothing to lose. I'm highly un-professional and thats the way I got stuck with in life. If I were a famous artist in history, i'd like to be more of a Hans Hoffman, live to be old and have what does'nt sound like the worst of lives. Instead, i've got the Van Gogh model, or pathetic side of Pollack. This gives me the position, and responsibilty, to say what I do. And in the end, as Sam stated, I participate here for the moments i'm not making things, which is most of my waking moments. I hope I offend some people, because I think maybe some folks need to be offended. Maybe they'll get the message instead of someone saying nothing except behind closed doors or in tired old circles of comfort. Or worse, "your art is nice"...

btw. when i said "believe me, altered..., i meant braindead (john), the aesthetic thing had me confused...