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#101
What's With The Kids These Days?
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"I just think Scott you should take into consideration what is lost when you begin to censor this basic freedom of exchange."
It's not a matter of censoring the basic freedom of exchange. It's a matter of holding contributors to basic rules of behavior. When someone veers off into tirades, demeaning others, and repeating themselves over and over, it becomes less a freedom of exchange and more of a self-serving bully pulpit. And if anyone - at that point - feels that the moderator stepping in to direct the discussion back on topic is censorship - they should really consider how much further down the crapper things would go if he hadn't done so. 
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#102
Topics and Debate
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Tom,
Your points are well stated and I agree with your concern about limiting conversation through strict guidelines. It is a fine line. The discussion will naturally stray at times from the primary topic, however there needs to be an overall structure to the Featured Forum to maintain active participation. Healthy debate and interesting discussions will be allowed and encouraged, even if they stray. However I want the forum to avoid becoming a dead space due to some user’s behavior. As for proper support…let me clarify. What is intended by that statement is to avoid posts which make direct accusations of other users or organizations without any support. The guidelines are too broad as stated previously. I will correct it to clarify, it is too vague as it stand currently. Thank you for your contribution Best, Scott The mission of mnartists.org is to improve the lives of Minnesota artists and to provide access to and engagement with Minnesota's arts community
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#103
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i've tried to be fairly articulate in past disagreements with Mr. Longoria, and they are recorded here and there amongst past forum posts, but i agree with Longoria here. Mr. Stulen, i think your policing of the forums is a problem for many of the reasons he has cited. i think things should be civil and all that, don't get me wrong, but if you see through many of his typos and such, he still has as valid of points as many of the other posters that are presenting their *opinions* on Mr. Fallons' presented topic. if someone wants to say the f word while they post on an artists forum, i think it should be tolerable. not needed really, but tolerated. other non-art forums, maybe not, but free speech, expression, opinions, ect should not be "moderated" in my humble opinion. let folks use their own judgement and skip over what they don't like. i'm personally not interested in those that can't offer an opinion under Mr. Stulens prescribed format. from my experience, many Minnesotans have a tendency to say everything behind one anothers backs, and that is something i seriously hope gen y, z ect begin to recognize and stop. especially as it is possibly more present in the art circles than the rest of the society.
i also think terms of service should be removed, especially as we have a paid staffer available to remove spam showing up here frequently enough to keep it clear of spam. cheers, gabe combs
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#104
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Unregistered and Scott
Scott Thank you for your feed back, I want to let you know I have enjoyed your input and agree with much of what you've said. And as you made it clear you understand the importance of a healthy debate. Unregistered I understand your irritation with some of the comments made by coyote and maybe even by me. However the statements that irritate us the most are the ones that need the most protecting. Yes, there have been ramblings and No, I didn't think they were all appropriate. But you don't have to acknowledge everything just the things you agree or disagree with. There is obviously some history between coyote and Micheal and others whether or not its warranted isn't for me to say, I don't know the history. But he has said some things that have had merit and weighed in on the article of generation "y". I think that if the mediator rules are to stringent the debate will definitely be to far down the "crapper" before anything can actually be discussed. I don't know which is more damaging personal attacks or regulated forum participants. Tom
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#105
12:22am
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Wow. This is a good (th)read.
I just wanted to respond to Josh of some pages back. Josh, you said.. let me look for it.. Quote:
And the reason no one looks to themselves for a cause or solution is in order to assign blame. Often times a conscious manipulation. I believe the technology and "medications" were created by ex-natzis, imported to America after world war 2 as "research scientists". IBM created the worlds first computer (punch card database) to keep genetic or "eugenics" information. A racial profiling system that makes genocide efficient. Thus history, and thats the drive the computers came from. The "Medications" are really not healing substances and do a fair amount of damage as they control behavior. I know there are arguments if behavior is not self controllable, but my point is big pahama pills are not the medicine of Gen x. And definitely propagated by some other force. Certain societies are the problem. There are XYZ's out there thinking ALL of our society of civilization needs to STOP. It's wack out of controlz... but maybe the Freedom Movement is a model society at the height of civilization.
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#106
art form
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Quote:
The myth that the "topic" is known to the moderator in any way better than to the reader is self evident here. We as a nation are bout to become a third rate power in the new economic order of influence. That directly impacts the economy of the gen Y. The actions of China subsidizing the cultural efforts of it's 20,000,000 babies born on 8-8-08 is a direct threat of limited recognition of American Artists in the next 20 years. That is directly related to gen Y. The history of Forums is there for all to read. You sir do here make a false argument. The forums once held the attention of significant decision makers in the Arts because here in a wide open space some of the most frightening topics could be breeched. Gen Y needs to have the old guard challenged. It can not be done even in gathering of Artists because of the fear of revenge that has plagued this "small town" art scene. Gen Y will face a reduction of available exhibition venue because the foundations and the society in general is "poorer". The Euro has climbed to 1.5 of the USA dollar as an average; the net result is the our society is poorer; Art remains a "luxury" item in the way all societies allocate resources. The thrust of the article on gen Y is that they are to be responsible for the up coming shrinkage in the actualization of Art. This idea is a huge load of crap laid down on the blameless under the guise of wisdom of the elders. It is pure crap. The efforts by you to distract the discussion away from the topic with your attack of Mr. Longoria is evident to the "audience that follows the coyote". Your allegations that the Coyote is bombastic flies in the face of the "effects" that the "performance" has had on the "politics" of the current Art scene. Gen Y , individually is not on the forums for fear of what you and the insider crowd might do to their careers in the "small town" Minnesota Arts world. The coyote never is a threat to them. The coyote is focused on changing the status quo to allow the "new" art to grow. You, sir Unregistered, choose to identify the personal identity of Coyote, yet you do not identify yourself. You make smear claims against him and the performance and yet hide yourself. Gen Y needs to see Art and Artists that provide leadership in a different light than what the current moderator holds to be true. The current moderator has failed to give the Gen Y a clear view of the real issues in the Article by focusing on "controlling" this forum as if it were a blog. Gen Y is smart enough to see through the red baiting, rule making and general distraction form the discussion of the central point of the Article: to direct blame away from the status quo to those too young to stand up to the abuse.(I do have faith in them but understand the fear of retaliation) . So close this thread and prove yourselves more concerned with protecting your image than with the values of a "free society". In gen Y's time our democracy and it's encasement in our art will be the key value that will set our Art apart from the Chinese cultural sunami that has begun to make this dialogue insignificant. coyote in green
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#107
Generation Y and Money
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I was forwarded this very interesting article speaking to generational view points and financial behaviors. I know that I struggle at times with budgeting for living expenses, art supplies and other "wants". This article hit close to home and I think it again speaks to the topic at hand, a generational change in outlook and approach. What I think is at the core of our discussion is weather or not there is a generational shift occurring, not weather one generation is right or wrong.
Scott The mission of mnartists.org is to improve the lives of Minnesota artists and to provide access to and engagement with Minnesota's arts community
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#108
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I have to give you credit, Scott, first for finding so many valuable and relevant articles related to this issue of the values of Gen Y, and second for the fact that the articles are so well balanced in their view. Part of my point in writing this piece was to suggest that the rest of us older folk (Gen X, the Boom, etc) should learn about Gen Y and its character/values, because obviously they will be inheritors of the system as we pass on. I also intended this piece somewhat as a warning to members of Gen Y--that the struggles faced by my generation might only be heightened for the next generation due to diminishing resources as well as markedly changed values. In terms of art, my point is that Gen Y artists, who are seeking fame and fortune (according to all the research), HAVE to be aware that their own generation is uninvolved as an audience for art. The irony is that Gen Y's own impending doom and failure--notwithstanding anything that previous generations believed or did--is absolutely obvious and like preordained in its own values and approach to life and in the strange dynamic of wanting fame without being willing to give support. My additional purpose in writing this, then, was in the hopes that young people might then rearrange their values and change for the better and to ensure their own success.
This latest article highlights this dynamic yet again--this time in financial terms. Gen Y is convinced, as study after study reveals, it will be rich, just at the time that all projections reveal a prolonged downturn and much more difficult financial realities--demanding much more attention to financial matters--in the future. Notwithstanding all of this information about Gen Y, I have to say it's one thing to throw out wild accusations (over and over and over, to the point of taking up almost half a forum's posts) about a writer's intentions (as a way of attracting attention and notoriety), but it's another, perhaps much more rational and meaningful thing, to take a hard look at the mounting evidence, and at writing that's weighed the evidence and conducted research, and then start to discuss ways to deal with, and perhaps solve, looming problems for the future. I would hope that anyone from any generation--X, Y, or B--would take this latter approach and ignore those gadflies who take the first approach (repeating themselves and overposting to boot). Last edited by Michael Fallon : 08-22-2008 at 04:11 PM.
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#109
What's With the Kids
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The plight of the generation y artists is how do you elbow your way into the art world, maybe by thinking that you will be “rich & famous” than your are rich & famous. The problem with elbowing your way in means someone is “out” of course no one really ever out, just not “in”. Our Society now accepts that some are” in “some are “out”. I don’t really like this game show premise that there is limited room in art, you can do anything you want with no restrictions, it’s being recognized, that’s the rub. Being rich and famous does make it easy to jump over the gate and does get one “in”. Some of the museums have the Masters work galleries and current stuff galleries and in time some of the current stuff moves to the Master area. I agree that the current stuff area has been shrinking and can see that the “rich & famous” strategy is a good way to get directly into the Master area,
The forum has guidelines, and (oh my) so does the “Art” community. Our art community loves it’s limitations, if things were not limited, how would anyone know what’s “good”. The original article is by one of the gatekeepers of the art community and he worried about the great tide of mediocrity of the gen y artists. This is a big responsibility; I would worry that maybe the tide wasn’t mediocre but just a change of tides. Funny that there has been so many mediocre tides lately. So what do you tell your gen y kid? “craftsmanship & vision kid” (really old school) or “You better get on the good side of those curators and writers if you know what’s good for you.” (old school) or be “rich & famous” and they will want to get to know you. (new school). Remember the rules kids. Drive on the right side of the road or something bad may happen. or get yourself a Chuck Close cover it with colored seeds call it “Chuck Close obliterated by seeds” or something bad may happen. (OMG I think I went full mediocre with that) Of course expanding the “current stuff” Galleries with less limitations is the best thing for everyone in the arts community. I do love the museums and think that they are very necessary (one can’t have a Vermeer at home way too much responsibility) they keep the precious things of the past safe for all. Mr. Fallons original piece was very thought provoking and everyone’s comments interesting. Thanks Unregistered Uneducated Unable to write a complete sentence Went full mediocre Artist anyway
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#110
art form
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Quote:
Everyone is struggling. To try to pin the economic downturn on the consumer ignorance of a whole age class is still just plain dumb and dishonorable. Before the easy to get credit card there was the in store charge at Sears. In large manufacturing industries there was the "company store". In the last depression there was the "ten cents on the dollar" hedge. And before that there was the "bond". The gen Y are victims of the previous generation that put the balancing of the consumer transaction into the future; you need only to recall Whimpy's famous saying " I will gladly pay you Wednesday for a Hamburger today". The problem is that debts that afflict our society now are about to run into the creditor's decision (China) to call up the due and to change the currency. ( this to control the fall of the USA $) It does little good to blame the young consumer for practicing a culture that naturally evolved from an exploitive economic mind set, to set up the whole country for what has befallen it. It is a time for real leadership: everyone needs to accept their share of costs for the future. The workplace is changing so fast that more Enron's are in the making because the Y are accepting more risks than any other generation ought to. And in such a future "Honor" will once again have a real value. Think Bush and "WOMD". Much of the how of the current woe is due to the art of Hype, fashion, marketing over the art of truth. We artists have an opportunity to provide that leadership by demonstrating Honor. We will not do it with hype, spin and evasion of truth. What our future gen Y leaders need to do is sharpen their truth assessment skills and be more demanding of honorable conduct in the actions of the current leadership than their predecessors have. They need to judge your generation by it's conduct and not it's claims. coyote at the entrance
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